(writing) Ponderings...

[vg_ford]

Is there a way to use someone like a Greek God character WITHOUT it being a deux ex machina?

Edit:

The reason I'm asking this is twofold. One, I just finished a book last night that had Greek Gods in it, and they were characters, and it seemed like every time the hero/heroine hit a bump, some god was there to help them out. I dunno, that seems like authorial copout to me.

Two, I have a demi-god (well, she is, sort of) that is the focal point of the other series that is the companion to Horseman, and I'm sort of hoping to avoid the whole deus ex machina thing. So I'm soliciting opinions about how to pull it off successfully, and if anyone has a recommendation of a book/series that does this well (especially if the MC is the god), let me know.

The only one I can think of off the top of my head is a romance by Roberta Gellis called Burning Brightly, which was the love story of Persephone and Hades. There, they weren't gods, really - they were mages, and there wasn't a lot of "well, I'm a god, so this is the way I'm going to arrange things."

I dunno, maybe I'm overthinking this.

Comments

[scarlettarcher.livejournal.com]

Well they're used to sort of set the story right, right? Deux Ex Machina is there for a god to come in and help things go well. So why not introduce a greek god, and have them fuck things up?

[vg-ford.livejournal.com]

I suppose. I just finished a romance where it seemed like every time the hero/heroine ran into an issue, there was a god to help them out - or to help the author when they ran out of plot, and it put a sour taste in my mouth.

[camilla-anna.livejournal.com]

you have to make it a character and give it limitations. Actually the Greek Gods are particularly good for making into real characters, because they're not omniscient/omnipotent like the Christian god. They're usually in charge of a few major things, and clueless (possibly) about the rest. Also since the Greeks delighted in giving their gods human frailties, reading the appropriate myths in detail will give you a lot of hints for that sort of thing.

Re-read Bikeweek (still up on the group writing site). :D

[vg-ford.livejournal.com]

but even still - giving them quirks doesn't make them any less a deus ex machina if they use their gifts every time the hero/heroine run into trouble.

And yes, I have to finish Bike Week. It's on my list. :p

[madwriter.livejournal.com]

Limitations, yes, and/or the fact that if they want to do anything powerful or supernatural, etc., there should be some kind of cost attached.

[vg-ford.livejournal.com]

But do limitations work if the end result (the hero/heroine is pulled from the issue at hand) is the same? I guess I'm looking at how this can be used and not come across as authorial copout.

[suelder.livejournal.com]

The Greek gods were notorious meddlers. Most of the time, when they interfered, it wasn't to help out, it was to muck things up.

Hermes, especially, was often the trickster, and Aphrodite would often throw a little lust into the mix to liven things up.

Based on the myths I read as a (Greek) kid, I'm appalled at the "Gods come in at the last minute to save the day" plots. Much more "realistic" would be to have the gods say - "Well, that's bloody boring. Let's see what Hercules will do about *this*!"

Suelder

[vg-ford.livejournal.com]

yeah, well, that's pretty much what this was, which is what I'm trying to avoid.

[fencerm2.livejournal.com]

If the character is not, in fact, present to serve the purpose of a 'deus ex machina', then yes.

They can always just be passing through.

They can always just be using their god-powers to sew chaos OR order or their form of order, which to the central character would be chaos.

The could be around to eff with your characters in their own way.

They can always be refusing to use their powers or for some reason be unable to make use of their abilities due to some kind of restriction/moratorium/curse etc.

I can see LOTS of options here.

[vg-ford.livejournal.com]

Problem is that she's the MC. >.

[ezworld.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking that it shouldn't matter if the MC is a god, a demi-god, a powerful supernatural or whatever -- she needs motivations, goals and conflicts just like every other MC.

If she's got a plan, and acts to achieve that plan, no matter how it helps or hinders other characters, I don't think that's god in the machine -- *so long as* the motivation for her actions is written strongly enough, and it's made clear she isn't just doing it for the hell of it.

I guess it would be nice, though, if the demi-god's actions didn't always end up helping the other characters. But to have their motivations and goals coincide isn't a problem with deux ex machina, it's just a lack of character conflict, right?

[vg-ford.livejournal.com]

I think so. And I agree, they need other motivation rather than "I'm a god and I can do this."

I think I'm okay, because the MC is the demi-god, and not a secondary character. I just have issues with the "I'm a god and I'm only here in the story to make things right for the MC." Which is what this story was.

[time-testudinem.livejournal.com]

I think the problem is with scale. The gods are big and people are small. A human story can have a god character, but the gods must remain non understandable to the human characters, almost by definition. My favorite example of this is "The Curse of Chalion". Those gods are definitely characters in their own right with personalities, but no point of view character actually understands them.
It sounds like you have the opposite problem, telling the "big" story from the god's perspective. In this case I think the trick is that none of the god characters can really think that what the humans are doing is important. They may be interested, as we would be in American Idle, or a even a baseball game, but from their perspective, if it was really important, then a GOD would be doing it. My memory of the greek myths has the gods treating the human world as a cross between reality TV, a sporting event, and internet porn. Then they would sometimes make side bets among themselves and therefore meddle like hell, because they are cheats at heart. Their bet being much more important than whatever happens to the humans involved.
I think that attitude is what is necessary for such a story to read. Like watching a baby race. The point of view of the parent as they do anything and everything to try and get their child across the finish first, so they can get the congratulations of their fellow moms and dads, is much different than the perspective of the baby (which may or may not even know it is in the race).
Of couse the god is going to step in at some point and wisk away obstacles that were insurmountable by the human, but if the matters of scale are kept in mind, then I see that as a great potential for irony, rather than a let-down. Of course it probably takes a very good writer to bring that out. If the story you read felt like an author cop-out, it probably was. because doing it right might be harder than not doing it at all.

(wow, do I like to ramble and pretend I know what I am talking about when I am looking for an excuse not to work out. If none of that made sense, please just ignore.)

[vg-ford.livejournal.com]

LOL - interesting points. I'll have to think on this.

[aishabintjamil.livejournal.com]

The book I'm currently working on has a goddess as a prime motivator, pulling strings to make things happen. But the key here is that she *has* to pull strings. She can't just get away with waving her hands and doing what she wants. There are rules that control the behavior of the gods.

In the world camilla_anna and I are sharing, the gods have a sort of cold war mutual non-aggression pact. If they mess with each other directly first hand, they wreck the place, and nobody (well, almost nobody) wants that. So the play within a set of rules, and use humans to act for them. Not always nice for the humans, but on the other hand it gives the humans some power too. One of the goddess's big issues here is that the human she wants/needs as her representative is not happy and cooperative about the idea.

Take a step back and get solidly in your mind what restrictions there are on the powers of your semi-divine MC. What limits her? What kinds of actions is she forbidden to take by the nature of what she is? Are there rules laid down by more powerful beings? (and even if you're a god, there's probably someone higher up the food chain, unless you really want to try writing an omnipotent, omniscient one). Are there things she doesn't *dare* to do, even though she could, because she knows if she escalates the fight, the other side will escalate too? Are there things she just won't do because she's trying to be at least sort of human? Answers to these questions might all give you reasons why she doesn't just blow everything in her path away, even if she has enough power to do it.

Another thought just came to me. Go take a look at the section of that posting on street kids that you posted the link too a while ago, the part on fights and reputation/face. Most of the points raised there could reasonably apply to gods dealing with each other.

[vg-ford.livejournal.com]

Take a step back and get solidly in your mind what restrictions there are on the powers of your semi-divine MC. What limits her? What kinds of actions is she forbidden to take by the nature of what she is? Are there rules laid down by more powerful beings? (and even if you're a god, there's probably someone higher up the food chain, unless you really want to try writing an omnipotent, omniscient one). Are there things she doesn't *dare* to do, even though she could, because she knows if she escalates the fight, the other side will escalate too? Are there things she just won't do because she's trying to be at least sort of human? Answers to these questions might all give you reasons why she doesn't just blow everything in her path away, even if she has enough power to do it.

YES!!! This is what I was looking for. You're brilliant.

Thank you!